Pakistan in Perspective | Minorities, Constitution and Human Rights (Season 1, Episode 4)
Uploaded On 09-05-2020
Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh who and welcome to Pakistan in perspective a special series examining the state of minority and human rights in Pakistan from a historical legal and philosophical perspective program we discuss the special case at the end of the Muslim community in Pakistan and some of the objective evidence that exist to demonstrate that discrimination that the face in Pakistan today’s programme explorers in more detail the anti blasphemy and anti minority criminal ordinances that exist in Pakistan and we will also touch on the issue of political rights of minorities and in the case of the community the issue of their exclusion from the joint electorate in Pakistan and other loading restrictions joining me to discuss these matters are two very distinguished lawyers from Pakistan we have Mr Abid Hussain Minto he is a senior lawyer and advocate before the Supreme Court of Pakistan and a constitutional law expert asana.com instrumental we have Mr McGee breast man who is the senior lawyer from Pakistan and advocate before the Supreme Court of Pakistan and an expert on Islamic Sharia law and related subjects and it comes to rathfarnham I wanted to turn to you first Mr Minto programs we discussed specifically the issue of the 1974 constitutional amendment the Second Amendment of the constitution which define who is or is not a Muslim for purposes of the law in a manner that set forth what is institutionalized discrimination against the action of the Emerson community I wanted your thoughts instrumento on the the events there after and what the implications are legal implications of having this constitutional amendment and also in terms of peaceful Society Ridge Pakistan should have been right from the beginning because the fact that you make a community has a minority on the basis of religious beliefs within the mainstream of the Muslim Society itself in fact that it could open update for Floodgates for discrimination between one and the other group within the mainstream itself now what you see is this the ahmadis are being discriminated within the mainstream Muslim community these are also discriminated against the other minorities in the sense that the other minorities are not by specific reference in the constitution or the law appointed as minority is who can be dealt with in a particular fashion but the ahmadis are and the entire system of Law particularly system of crime and Punishment concerning the beliefs that is a marriage after the 1974 constitution was a Monday and particularly during the period of heart has raised a whole system of separate jurisprudence a whole system of Law which is from the basic very beginning it discriminatory know so therefore it has opened up Floodgates it has opened up Floodgates andyou are actually creating a society which is full of contradictions and conflicts gets you in more detail the specific pieces of legislation subsequent to the Second Amendment that essentially institutionalise the discrimination of religious minorities we had the opportunity to ask some of Pakistan’s leading experts to share their impressions about the anti blasphemy law and other criminal ordinances during presidency alpha timeless pick a quick lesson fine and still trying to make concessions to the right-wing populists in the country the combination of these two things made conditions for minorities much was the big mistake and I’ve written this many a time that in trying to deal with the Islamic groups in Pakistan who were in a coalition he thought he would steal their clothes so he banned alcohol he made Friday a public holiday in one of the oldest demands of the hardcore islamist groups was to play the Emma Diaz to be non-muslims he did that it was not done by the right it was not done by a military dictatorship it was done by Bhutto probably the most liberal Prime Minister we ever had and that I think was a huge tragedy for Pakistan because it meant you could never roll it back that had been done see it then after he sees bar in 1977 decided the this phase of the country’s life was going to be islamization and he said so so low so promulgated during his years against religious minorities the blasphemy laws were made worse and the rights of women was severely truncated under the appreciate and since that time things haven’t got better they’ve got worse and the conditions in Pakistan especially after 1977 when started a policy of islamization according to His own interpretation of Islam the whole audio and vision of Pakistan which was in the mind and in the documents of Pakistan which was in the mind of the founding fathers of Pakistan violated all those principles and he changed the mindset of the people in a way that whatever is happening now in Pakistan we can say that we are ripping what’s your luck and his companions in Pakistan Pakistan’s blasphemy law and its effects on minoritieslooking at it from a lawyer practicing on the criminal side I will give you the account office background also but these laws are so over broad Solveig and their implementation is so pervasive that the law itself is vitiated know how these last game in to bring we have just now her that they all have had a had an agenda for whatever reason in order 2 and 20 m into the into power in Pakistan he started the process of islamization now one of the first Lord which he brought in we have some laws under the chapter of religious offences offences against religion in Pakistan penal code right from the greatest days but those were very thoroughly debated drafted with all the requirements of a political or of a criminal legislation those larger finally define but the first introduced to 98 to 98 A&B I’m talking 298b now no place my last cover the vibrate 298b deals with defilement of Quran now that loves development of Quran actually you know how it came about when you try to project to the people the Fundamentalist religious view this is what happens a terrorist talking about quran and Islam and Sunday and he was placating it a terrorist picked up a volume of holy Quran he cut its paces from the pages from inside and put a booby trap in it and I wanted to present that you would have blown up so that was a terrorist activity ground was used for setting the various purpose but it was used for that purpose because of the susceptibilities of Doha nobody that he will use His purpose but person did and then came the law 298b / Fran none of them they’re after came 92/98 if any person who buy words words written or spoken presentacion or by incineration by innuendo or any any manner whatsoever define the name of the Holy Prophet all these words incineration anyway you can think infinite ways where the man can be brought into the door it’s so babe if you go to the international criminal law jurisprudence if you look at it has to be specific reporting notice but he is supposed to supposed to know the specific language that you’re referring to you that the explicit language so that by facially the language is very that indirectly or directly by innuendo by insinuation these standards are difficult to department of the name of the holy prophet and the examples are rampant and Pakistan and you think if I may give you an example I don’t want to take too long but it will done it teacher of Islamic studies who belong to jamaat-e-islami was charged under 295c for development of the prophet because he gave a translation of The Chronic virus which is known as I threw could see very sad who is it there who can intercede with God except with his permission and students vs Elsa for the holy prophet to see for us on the day of judgement he said yes my tyre yes my darling but with God formation and the prophets and their 195cm to run to mansourieh in Lahore I meant that is not even this is surprising you know and the 295c the largest number of people were Muslimsthe law is an in and its broad application the law has been used in well over to bring charges against well over 1000 individuals and individuals who are Sunni Muslims Shia Muslims Christians and it’s a broad range of individuals in Pakistan describe a bit your understanding of the purpose of the Lord is it was it was a law designed to accept such a broad cross-section of the community and how’s it been used illegally my friend has already spoken about The Weakness of the law itself because I asked one of the supporters of this law I said if a non Muslim population not necessarily beer and this has declared that non-muslims and Halo constitution but any recognised non-muslim must be asked who is the last prophet giving Natalie speak of his own profit so therefore Jesus Christ the last prophet for the Christians and Moses for an oblong for further use does he by implication define the name of the prophet of Islam sallallahu salam Sony it’s all as you can imagine this so it can be used anywhere in any circumstances wherever you want to punish a person on the premise of his belief and Faith and His own commitment in his own life you can take this law and use it against him so that aside from that I I remember it is that I did offer and certain doctor he was regularly qualified doctor was lecturing and a homoeopathic Institute very was teaching medicine and perhaps and pathology and something that’s all and he in fact that Institute was in the vicinity of another and some people teachers and boys behaviour is students and then you about him the about the doctor that he was a free man he was a civil Society activist he was human right activist until they were trying to put all kinds of questions to him to pin him down sunbed one of them asked him was the prophet of Islam married with the first wife that under the Islamic rights was there any car pronounce no Natalie he was a student of history and he said there was no Islamic that point of time and therefore according to the right that available at that point of time the president and the society then he asked another question and he says what’s the second CC and done to the prophet of Islam This kind of a question sinister questions to pin a person down and a person who has a general understanding of the of the of the society and the life and the history will be answering questions according to His general information and he will be cut down with this notice law does not say that intention is a necessary part of this matterit’s pixel singles Audi community a sad because whoever does this shall be penalised the crime go like that whoever does it here any person belonging to the lorry or I will leave the group who call themselves the whole group has been singled out for criminalisation poses as a Muslim man goes on directly or indirectly and all those things I’m not giving you the words of the statute but they are so big for for insurance purposes as a Muslim not avoid poles Solveig anything and we turn disposing if I if I wear a fib reply French beard which is the session and Saudi Arabia do I get my post a Muslim or a 5-year a long according to the centre of the Holy Prophet saleh Callum do I possibly Muslim 60 very much I can do the Muslim scholars many of Muslim and many of the 6 cannot be identified their face by their face looking at the pier does that supposed to be a Muslim supposing a stupid and you know how and any other manner whatsoever outright is it I can give you some instances I have travel from Islamabad to Peshawar from flower to quieter and quieter to Karachi defending cases and 29th and One Gentleman under 298c and the sis said I was standing on the corner of the street and I heard Quran recitation recited inside the house of Gentlemen and the gentleman that I had to go to a from about to get in bed out but at that point of time the gentleman switched on TV Pakistan television starting it’s programme with the recitation of holy quran and what we man heard in the street was the recitation of the Holy Quran 20% Albion and just remember 298c another gentleman and he was charged because as you pass through the street social behaviour normal salutation alaikum shop and he was charged under 298c you post to be most handy was sentenced to 3 years are overpriced and certainly used in the various ways we had the opportunity to interview some more experts on Pakistan about the Impressions about these laws and about the impact let’s take a quick lesson you have to go back to Xperia because it was during his time and then he also brought another ordinance which was discriminatory and at the time he did that in order to satisfy the religious hardline clerics in in Pakistan in my view States job to decide whether a particular person is following religion ab relationship between an individual and God and a person can follow any religion of his or her choice and stayed card make that kind of decision but in order to satisfy the hardline religious leaders this kind of condition was placed in this statement before you apply for passport even for registration ofin the past when I was young and people would say you know why I said that Muslims never win the any Nobel prizes for science and needs to say abdus-salaam one was the coal winner of the Nobel Prize for Physics so it’s not true a Muslim has won Nobel Prize for Physics not for anything else for physics a very advanced science today you can’t make that statement in Pakistan because it’s illegal but you can say that in India it’s fine you can say that in Europe it’s fine I can say that in the United States in Africa is fine but not in Pakistan and people don’t see the absurdity of this I wanted to know turn briefly to the issue of political rights for minorities in Pakistan in specifically the right to vote we know that the right to vote is guaranteed in Pakistan constitution help us understand the history of the voting rights in Pakistan have religious minorities been able to vote in the same way as the majority religious minorities in Pakistan or non into the light from the beginning they had never recognise except for dinner speech when he said that they are equal citizens and notwithstanding the pretensions of the ruling people and the constitutional provisions hair and they’re saying that everybody is equal in fact the minorities have never been treated equally so therefore right from the beginning there is not been a proper treatment of the minorities and I be nice a proper treatment of minorities I’m only using the language which is commonly being used in this context otherwise in my view the treatment to a human being is the issue citizen of a country is a human being fundamentally and he has to be treated as a human being weather is a man or a woman believes in this or that religion has any persuasion politically speaking he has to be dealt with with all of the Citizens in the in the country that has not come to B&B changes in the law and the constitution and the manner in which the views of a certain group of people who were the the Orthodox can pharmacists and the and the right wingers and a metal religion also because in their original so you have progressive and modern and interpreters of religion that you was accepted for practical purposes and the result was that the whole Society itself was the situation where the normal human considerations failed in front of the religious bisexual so that is the results show the religious communities have been suffering it is not Has Emmerdale been specifically picked up for this purpose but all of their communities by default in fact there are also suffering in Pakistan and one of the implications results of that that suffering is for a long time and Mr M on a separate electorate in Pakistan that was instituted for religious minorities as a way that they would both separately from the mainstream majority and waited in Pakistan inception what do basic idea which I try to project is that in a society which is as a matter of fact pluralist which has many people of different faiths the different ethnic groups so it is by the metre effective Society you convert the pluralist society and divided and you eliminate brutalism from the society and the process of integration is seriously jeopardized when you provide for white separate electric now that separate electric system by itself is an answerwas abolished in 2200 President Musharraf when in February of that year he reinstated a joint elected and which was heralded by the international community but a few months later by a stroke of a pen in executive Order 15 he said the status of these what you remain unchanged so you have the remarkable result that the only community that is disenfranchise they’re not part of the electorate or the ahmadi community and they can only vote if they declared themselves to be non-muslim that is very obvious but I wanted to take you back a little history at the very inception when we are working out of our first constitution and this he came up interestingly the East Pakistan because the majority of Pakistan they wanted to have a giant electric even though we had the lad Hindu minority there and the people invest Pakistan wanted to have separate electric but after a lot of debate Western of separate electric was not accepted by the Pakistan constitution but the that Bakra Mandi Pakistan Society the fundamentals precious here and the Liberal attitude Pakistan what I’m saying it leads if you want to say Pakistan we have to have one single electoral list know David and the Citizenship and about with Michelle he said the reason he there was a lot of persuasion brought about by different sections of Pakistan intelligence and even the people who value the Democratic values so he said alright the separate electric was an innovation of him it was not constitutional set up to say so but then again the same bug And he said yes but a separate list for the improvements in Minority rights thanks very much